Swinging vs Striking

[Thomas]

I am on day 25 of the program. I have always built my golf swing around the feeling of swinging the club head. However, from what I have seen of the Tathata program, it appears that you are advocating more of a striking philosophy, especially with the introduction of pressure. Can you discuss whether this is accurate and why you believe that this is the proper method?

[Shonn Arndt]

Here’s my opinion and would definitely be interested in other’s views as well…

As identified by the movement routines, you “surf” /w baseball throw and “thrust” through impact all while increasing pressure in the body, hands and arms during the entire swing.

What I personally feel is an increase in pressure (body, hands & arms) as I “drive” with my legs (i.e. ground up). This keeps everything connected, safe and maintains width throughout the swing to create more of a “flow” or release of energy.

In tennis, I would not think of “swinging” or “striking” the ball with the racket nor in hockey “swinging” the stick or “striking” the puck…just one motion where the body athletically drives the “racket, stick or club” through the ball or puck. In football, we throw the ball by athletically driving the body vs “swinging” the arm and there is definitely no stick to “strike” the ball.

In golf, the body and club are “one” in the same way as the samurai and sword!

[Thomas]

I think this is a very interesting and important question. In my opinion, swinging the club is defined more by a pulling motion of the club through impact where striking is defined by pushing the club into impact. I am on day 32 of Tathata training and the emphasis has been on the body motions and the use of pressure to deliver the club through the zone, but this question hasn’t really been addressed. What I think also needs to be considered is the nature of the tool or device that we use in golf, which is shaft with a head on the end of it. The head of the club is heavier than the shaft and one could make the argument that the most efficient use of energy would be to utilize this difference in weight by swinging it like a rock tied to the end of a rope. A samurai sword or a staff are different in the weight is uniform throughout. You could also make this argument for the tennis racket and hockey stick do not have the weight differential of a golf club. If given the option, I would swing a sledge hammer and strike with a staff. As far as the throwing motion, I would say that the most efficient way to generate speed of the ball is to use a pulling motion where the elbow leads the hand.

[Tathata Staff]

What a great discussion and great points made by both of you. Thank you for reaching out and sharing your thoughts. We are both swinging and striking. The program, as you guys have seen, builds the body, hands and arms bringing it all together with pressure or strength. We have strategically built the program this way so that we can truly bring the body, hands and arms together to swing or strike together. Once we understand pressure, we understand how to move hands, arms and body together with equal pressure. If the hands and arms are at a pressure of a 4 at impact, but the body is at a pressure of a 7 then we are out of balance. If the stomach and ribs are pressurized at a 3 during the takeaway, but the hands and arms are at an 8 then we are out of balance. Imagine driving a nascar at 200mph for a second. What happens when a certain part of the car feels loose? They simply bring the car in and tighten it up. They tighten it up to ensure that the car is in balance. We essentially want “equal air pressure” in the hands, arms and body.

If something is pulling while something else lags behind, the hands and arms may seem out of balance. If the right hand is pushing with strength, then we would need the left hand pulling equally to counter balance and have equal pressure. This is the beauty in the way the greats, especially Jack Nicklaus, set up his grip with equal pressure in both hands. This allowed him to swing or throw the club head with absolute strength to strike the golf ball with complete balance.

To both of your points, there are going to be certain situations where we feel like we are swinging or throwing the club head at the ball. While swinging the club head, we want to make sure that the hands, arms and body swing the club head in balance and all together. There will be certain shots or certain lies like in deep rough or in a divot, where you may feel as if you are striking the ball, and with equal pressure in the hands, arms and body. Whether we are swinging or striking, the magic lies in our ability to walk into golf shots with complete strength and an expectation of something new out in front without needing to know how or why, smile inside and expect the moments ahead to be better than they have ever been before.

[Thomas]

Thank you very much for the excellent explanation. I was struggling with the question because I could see both components in the lessons and drills. In fact, it turns out that this was because both were present. Thanks again!

[Shonn Arndt]

Always appreciate learning from the different perspectives. Interesting analogy of a NASCAR..you could say the torque spec of the bolts are similar to the Tathata Golf pressure scale.

I often use the analogy of a diamond vs a lead pencil. Both are carbon based, however, the diamond formed under pressure stays connected where the lead has layers that slide off!

Thanks for sharing:)

[Michael]

I may be way off base but my impression is that this movement of body, arms, hands and club is strictly a striking movement with the momentum of the mass generating a tremendous amount of force to the golf ball. The concept of pressure and achieving balance in the body is not something that I had ever seriously considered especially as it pertains to the arms. A new concept that will require a serious change in thinking.

[Tathata Staff]

Michael,

Thank you for sharing. Pressure isn’t something that is thought about necessarily, it is more something that is felt. Pressure is our way out of thinking initially because it’s new in relation to the game of golf. We have to think about pressure possibly on a number scale. As we continue to train and understand pressure you will feel as though you move with strength and pressure to the shape, trajectory, and feeling of something incredible out in front.

[Gregory]

Greetings: Interesting discusion about striking vs. swinging. I have taken many golf lessons over the years, subscribed to many golf websites and been a You tube junkie. This is the first golf instructional program that makes sense! A quick question. Could you explain the role of gravity in the golf swing and letting the club fall from the top of the swing while making the surfing move? I am a bit confused about the word pressure and letting the club fall from the top using gravity as a result of the lower body move.Thanks so much!

Greg

[Tathata Staff]

Hi Greg,

Thank you for reaching out and for the question. Bryan has taken the time to respond to you with a video, to see this video please click on the link below:

Student Q & A: Does Gravity Play a Role in the Downswing?

Thank you Greg, enjoy!

[Gregory]

Bryan:

Thanks so much for taking the time for responding and making this video to clarify my questions. Makes alot of sense. I think I have been too casual and loose in my entire golf swing. I now have to reconcile being looose, feeling the weight of the clubhead and your promotion of “pressure” in the golf swing.

Thanks again and I look forward to completing the program!

Greg

[Michael]

Dear Brian and the team,

Firstly I would like to say I’m enjoying the program and find it a very refreshing way of learning and improving. 99% of the program resonates with me completely but there are some issues with the impact section (day 24/25) that don’t make sense. The issue I have is with the position of the hands and club in front of the right thigh. If you look at almost all professional golfers and particularly those that hit the ball a long way they have a 90 degree angle in both wrists and the club is roughly parallel to the ground and on the target line (lag). This position is often maintained until the butt of the club is up to or even slightly past the ball, Tiger Wood, Rory McIlroy, Ernie Els etc. Also the trail arm is not straight at this point and doesn’t straighten until after impact. The program intimates that from the trail thigh the body hands and club head are all moving together and the ball is impacted with force. Force in engineering terms as it relates to a golf club is ½ mass x velocity2 therefore club head speed is the critical factor in generating force and distance. My point is from a technical perspective it’s not physically possible to move the body quick enough for everything to move through impact together. There has to be a storing of energy that is released between the position in front of the trail thigh and through impact similar to a slingshot. Technically speaking the stored energy acts like a lever with a mechanical advantage. Thus the hands only travel a small distance from the trail thigh but the club head has a much greater distance to travel. Roughly speaking that’s just over 4 to 1 with a driver. This backs up the typical hand speed of a pro golfer in the mid to high 20mph range. Also if the right arm is full extended at the right thigh, even with the flattening of the shaft, I think the club would dump into the ground behind the ball. Just to represent this point in terms of Jack Nicklaus’s swing whilst the angle in his wrists are a little less than some of the modern players his right arm is still bent until well after impact. I accept that we are talking about a static position but for me this is a key issue that needs elaborating.

Mike

[Tathata Staff]

Hi Mike,

Great thoughts and great question. The back arm isn’t actually straight at this point but straightens completely just after impact. This is a feeling we develop during training to ensure proper width on the downswing. The Hand & Arm Movement 11: Baseball Throw w/Thrust is a great way to translate this back arm straightening through impact. Impact Movement: 8: Full Motion Setup Through Impact would help too.

You are correct in the sense that the butt of the club is roughly over the ball when the club shaft is parallel to the ground. Something interesting Nick Faldo said once is that he tries to get his back hip past the ball at impact, meaning if you were watching him from behind you would see the ball as he strikes it because his hips have moved that much forward toward the target. This being said, you can see that our motion tends to move the back hip almost even with the ball coming into impact.

Although we don’t subscribe the shaft being quite parallel with the ground when the hands reach the outside edge of the back thigh, it is not very long before this as you explained with how much faster the club head is moving than the hands at this point. Because of this the club head is actually moving through this point and to the ball much faster than if that angle was held longer. The club is also supported much better by the body and pressure within the body at this point than opening the hips more and trying to hold onto this angle. Our model allows for more hand speed into and out of impact as it is supported and thrusted by the body.

Jack Nicklaus said he felt like he was releasing the club as much as he could from the top of the downswing. This allows the club head to be moving far faster throughout the downswing and into impact rather than some magical speed that appears from holding this angle longer. The body and hands and arms move very fast to stay ahead of the club and keep plenty of angle coming into impact but our motion does not let this get excessive.

Great thoughts and observations, we hope this helps. Let us know if we can provide any further clarity.

[James]

Hello, I just stumbled on this thread. I had started a similar one hit or swing. I also had another thread where I talked about using gravity in the downswing and had seen Bryans video posted to it. I agree with what Bryan says about not just letting the arms collapse however I have a little different idea on gravity in a golf swing. I think of a child on a swing. For a child swing to work it must be securely attached to the ground or it will fall over. Likewise your lower body and feet need pressure and need to be in the ground secure. The rope of the swing must be tight, the weight of the child makes it tight so it will fall on an arc and accelerate due to gravity. I see the pressure of four in Tathata mechanics away from the body like the tight rope of the swing so it can fall on an arc and accelerate due to gravity. The last comparison is when do you release or push the swing? If you try to push too soon at the top the kid will fall off. You let gravity start down then you push and assist momentum and push hard and let the kid go, which I see as the release in the golf swing. When pushing a kid on a swing you instinctively know where to push but it is much harder to find that spot in the golf swing but I feel the physics are the same. Like I said in my other thread as a swinger of the club I am having a difficult time giving up these mechanics to adopt the Tathata hit mechanics. I do love the program and it has helped my swingers swing work better with the understanding of pressure especially on the takeaway backswing and into transition.
Jim